Scientists at Nottingham University have investigated the attitude, behavior and skill of different types of riders according to their level of experience and training, using a new motorcycle simulator - with surprising results.
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The study, carried out by researchers at The University of Nottingham’s Centre for Motorcycle Ergonomics & Rider Human Factors, was designed to find out whether or not riders with advanced training actually ride better than those that don't have an advanced qualification.<o:p></o:p>
Using a Triumph Daytona 675 motorcycle mounted on a custom simulator, three groups of riders were put through identical scenarios, as well as other tasks in the laboratory to test aspects of their hazard perception and behavior.
The findings showed that experience on its own does not make riders safer on the road and in some cases the experienced riders behaved more like the novice riders. Advanced riders used better road positioning to anticipate and respond to hazards, kept to urban speed limits, and actually made better progress through bends than riders without the formal advanced training.
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Dr Alex Stedmon from the Human Factors Research Group, said: “This is one of the most in-depth studies of its kind ever conducted. It’s been a fantastic opportunity for us in the Faculty of Engineering to work alongside colleagues in the School of Psychology focusing on high impact research with a relevance to all motorcyclists. It has demonstrated clear differences between the rider groups and potential benefits to advanced training above and beyond rider experience and basic training.
Whilst experience seems to help develop rider skills to an extent, advanced training appears to develop deeper levels of awareness, perception and responsibility. It also appears to make riders better urban riders and quicker, smoother and safer riders in rural settings.”
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Dr David Crundall from the School of Psychology added: “This is real cutting edge research and the hazard perception results, in particular, have shown that advanced riders were quicker to identify hazards and had a greater awareness on their responsibility to themselves and other road users.”<o:p></o:p>
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IMHO, the best and safest riders are the ones who employ a slightly aggressive style of riding. In, out and gone. This doesn't mean riding at ridiculous speeds, but just generally hustling along. If you look at the amount of hours Despatch riders spend in the saddle, compared to accidents, you'll know what I mean. (And yeah, not all DRs are good riders). I've ridden with one of these so called advanced riders and was not impressed at all. His downfield vision, which is what really keeps you safe was atrocious and not only that, his spatial awareness was virtually nil.
To go off on a tangent here a bit. What makes a good car driver? - Someone whos ridden a bike. In london, cabbies have to take the 'knowledge' and gen up by riding around our crappy capital on mopeds/bikes. I would love to see EVERY car driver take a 1 month course on an MC, to understand road surfaces and what it means to be on 2 wheels.
How come so few people have commented on what is possibly one of the best posts for a long time? Well found Kwak.
Most on here know my opinion on this matter, which is that everyone should look to undertake further training once passing their bike test.
I've been in the unfortunate position of following someone who was apparently an experienced rider, but who I could see was riding like a novice.
I followed him for several miles, keeping my distance as he tried desperately to keep up with some of my friends that had overtaken him (he wasn't in our group). And I saw him catch up with a car on the approach to a left hand bend. I saw the sign warning of the junction to the right immediately after the bend and I saw the car put it's right hand indicator on as I also saw him get ready to overtake the car after the bend.
And I then came around the bend just in time to see his bike skidding down the road from where he'd clipped the car as it braked and also in time to see him head butt an oncoming car at around 60mph and to then rag doll a hundred feet down the road before coming to a very crumpled (and very dead) heap in a ditch.
The worst thing was I could see it was going to happen long before it did ... but he didn't. It could have been so easily avoided.
So as far as I'm concerned, if evidence like this leads to more encouragement to take further training and this in turn saves lives, then it gets the thumbs up from me.
invalid characters In: West Sussex
Posts: 647
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Just recently I've been using the ambulance car service and without doubt there is a big difference (Some have some haven't.), but I suspect that those that have received training actually wanted to improve themselves and took it a lot more seriously than if they'd been forced.
@geoffb2005 - Totally agree. Good post and no comments .....????
I've been on various driving courses (not MCs) for work and have found that although the instructors drum into people about how important downfield vision is, alot of them just cannot grasp it. So I've come to the conclusion that it must come down to common sense. The poor lad that you mentioned seemed to have a terrible combination of , lack of experience, downfield vision, confidence(or over) and lack of common sense. Even worse when you KNOW whats about to happen and theres fuck all you can do about it , not a nice feeling at all.
Advanced riders used better road positioning to anticipate and respond to hazards, kept to urban speed limits, and actually made better progress through bends than riders without the formal advanced training.
Like any training, its no good unless its used and put into practice
BUT ........... You don't have to go on advanced riding courses, good riders know about better road positioning, its obvious that if you keep to the right going around a left hand bend there's better visibility and vice versa etc etc and do it without thinking about it
Sticking to urban speed limits doesn't make you an advanced rider,good riders adjust their speed to the conditions.
Again, there's plenty riders out there who go fast along the straights, but can't carry speed smoothly around the bends, and that is I think the key point, smoothness that makes you a better rider, that and awareness and its difficult to teach awareness.
Geoff, you said you followed "an apparently experienced rider" but from what you said he obviously wasn't, so what makes you say he was experienced???
Length of time riding a bike doesn't make you experienced, but experiences do
@shadowfax (bit pissed right now, so this might look like bollox in the morning, or now if your sober )
The way I look at Advanced Riding (AR), is that its not for everyone and if you 'need' it your probably not going to be a very good rider ever. An OK rider yes, but not a good one.
Geoff made some great points as you have, and your last sentence is a good summary. Its what I was also saying, spatial awareness and vision. Once they come naturally, riding becomes a whole lot easier.
I've been riding (legally) since 1984 and in that time I think I've had 5 accidents, including 2 H&Rs, 2 diesel spills and one 'melted road' which is another story. Out of those accidents, I would say that now I wouldn't make the same mistakes again on the spill and meltdown as I was probably a bit naive. But I got away without serious damage to myself.
Could I have learnt anything back then that could have prevented me from these accidents? Yes more experience in varied conditions, definitely not advanced riding courses though.
So for me, if you want to be a better rider , ride within your skill set and do not take un-calculated risks.
I wonder what the ratio of accidents that bikers have riding in a group to riding singly is? I would hazard a guess and say most occur whilst riding with a buddy(s).
Shadow - only third hand information. Whilst still at the scene I saw two other bikes come from the other direction and stop and they were still there when we left. However, according to my friends that had spoken to them, they were this fella's mates and had been waiting for him in the next town and they reckon he'd been riding regularly for around fifteen years.
"I would hazard a guess and say most occur whilst riding with a buddy(s)." This is the age old issue isn't it. Four mates go out every Sunday for a high speed blast, three of whom are of similar abilities and one not quite as proficient. And each weekend he (or she) spends an entire day desperately trying to keep up but not wanting to admit they're struggling to do so until eventually they take one risk too many.
I've been with groups a number of times when this has happened and I have to even admit that a once it was me that was leading.
Long time ago and I had stopped the group and told them I was going for a play and would wait at the end of the road. But one friend, quite new to biking, had tried to catch up and he was too many bends behind for me to be able to watch. Similar thing though, I waiting at the end for a while before realising there was a problem.
However, it was an incident that has left me a little fearful of riding "quickly" whilst leading a group. Especially a larger group.
So in answer to your thoughts DT, I suspect that a very high proportion (maybe as high as 80% or more) of rural, Sunday afternoon accidents involve a group riding together.
What I'd also say is that if you are in a group where you're struggling to keep up ... then don't!! Back off! I'd even go as far as to say ride to the next stop steadily, well below your perceived limits (this is because after riding beyond your limits your perceived limits may have actually increased) and then tell your mates they're going to have to wait for you a bit. If after that they all clear off without warning you then they're not worth riding with in my opinion.
geoffb2005 - "tell your mates they're
going to have to wait for you a bit. If after that they all clear off
without warning you then they're not worth riding with in my opinion."
Well with my normal diplomacy and tact ............
Sunday afternoon group riding, usually a lot of recently passed DAS people who have R1's GSXR1000's etc who because they have read the mags who tell them they are the best handling etc etc immediately think they are riding gods ........ recipe for disaster.
Usually the ones who whack the throttle open then 1/4 mile before the corner hang their arse off the side and then apply the brakes.
If I want a decent ride out at a "reasonable pace" then I have a small number of mates who I will ride with, we are all of similar ability and we all have over 30 years riding each.
I have been with one person, who was considerably faster than me BUT he was a loon, wrong side of the road, wheelies all over the place, when he was overtaking etc, just stupid, so I did the "let him clear off". What got my goat was he genuinely thought he was a better rider than me
Mmmm....i can only comment of my own experience with peeps that have had extra training and those who haven't.....both parties still have accidents because some don't know what they are seeing and doing and don't know how not to get themselves into a situation so they don't crash.
The other bunch who carry advanced toilet paper with the right to ride like a god or godess and give out safe instruction that they don't follow themselves or push others to ride in a way that they don't feel safe with....
Simply put every foot of road is different with different hazards etc but if you are not able to take that information in and work out if you are safe or not slow down to a speed that you can control you enviroment and not put yourself in Hospital or worse.
Im not fond of a lot of what advanced schools teach but there is a lot to learn and for a novice rider it will help but the main thing for me is DON'T RIDE THE RIDER IN FRONT RIDE THE ROAD AS YOU SEE IT AND GIVE YOURSELF SPACE TO REACT AND STOP IF NECESSARY.
If you seriously want to improve your riding then understanding how the bike works in certain situations would be a good start.
Track days are the best places to learn to ride fast and safe, you can apply most of what you learn on them to the roads. They will also give you confidence without having to worry about traffic.
I frequently ride with a mixed bunch some faster some slower...we just decide where we're going and then meet up there so everyone can ride at a comfortable speed for themselves. Always ride with people you trust!
Bikesafe i would definitely recommend!
That's the thing, not so sure about doing track days ..... BUT I raced production Yams many many years ago and that taught me how to go round corners without losing too much speed, mostly due to the fact that I was giving away 3-4 stone to the midgets on the straights, so couldn't lose any time in the bends.
I cant see how riding a bike fast on the track translates into riding fast and safe on the road, yes you learn what your bike does, but no kerbs, traffic etc so how can it make you a better safer road rider????
bluesbiker In: Birmingham in th
Posts: 2510
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I agree SF. You can learn to find your apex's and be a bit more comfortable at speed but won't help you if there's a tractor round the corner. It also makes those that do trackdays think they can ride the sameway on a public road. I've also been riding for over 30 years with no training. The one accident i had i was a pillion. and it wasn't the riders fault it was a car driver.
some people are born with common sence. Others don't live long enough to find out.
its about confidence and learning to read the road...going on a trackday gives you the chance to ride without worrying about planks in cars. when you are confident in handling the bike you are a much safer rider...thats how it translates to the roads.
and sorry BB but it only makes you think you can ride like a dick on the road if you are already a dick!
ps think you'll find theres plenty of kerbs on tracks!
To be fair Kwakgirl road riding is completly different than track because of the hazards on it not just traffic but street furniture that blocks your view, pedestrians, change of road surface and the iron work that's in them for a start and you know that.
Riding on track does help bike control and finding yours and the bikes limit but this topic asked the question ARE ADVANCED RIDERS REALLY SAFER?
The answer for me is no....not for a lot of them who don't understand their bikes and how they work plus the roads in all their glory, new riders who go on these courses are ask to push themselves beyond their limits just to get a piece of paper that says you have done it.
I know of several I.A.M. riders who have passed and a couple of observers and instuctors, and all of them still make big mistakes and everyone of them that has passed in the last 6 years have crashed within a month. What's wrong with them??? for me they have no feel for what is happening and find themselves riding to quick and that's when the trouble starts....one little mistake turns into a big crash.
Some people have an ability to ride fast safe and never crash and others should sell their bikes before they kill themselves, but that is the same in all walks of life and aggression on public roads is a bad thing what ever the speed.
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