If people reading this wish to be more informed on the subject there is plenty of information on the web. education is a personal responsibility thing, hence no actual examples of what levels of force might or might not be acceptable, only exaggerated versions of examples that other readers have suggested could be used in a slightly tongue in cheek manner.
Glad to see that people are not taking things personally, cos this really is an interesting conversation. I know its a little off topic and although i DO make some generalisations about the character of the people of this country, it is no way meant to belittle anyone at all.
Kwakgirl-yeah you are right (in a way) about the constitution. Insofar as the UK does not have a codified and specific one like the United States. But to say "that is why common law exists!" is mistaken. The US constitution was written based on English Common Law (which in turn has evolved over the centuries from decisions made in jury courts) and on documents which DO make up our constitution such as Magna Carta 1215, and the Bill of Rights 1689.
So in fact its the other way round-the constitution exists because of the common law. In fact the americans felt so indebted to the english common law, they paid for a monument to be erected at Runnymede (where Magna Carta was sealed, in case you didnt know).
emzed-you can say a lot with so few words lol, but yeah your right education can be dangerous (especially political and social educaction).
Helmethair- ofc it would be wrong of either of us to presume that we "know" each others position on any matter and if i gave that impression i apologise. in the nature of these forums its hard to tease the information from all parties without upsetting someone through a little misunderstanding.
I am a little like you in that i have only a passing interest in the conspiracy theory thing, lol i went to a meeting in stockport once and came away thinking omg what a bunch of nutters!!
anyway, on the matter of rules and laws, you asked me to explain. If you look in the middle of my last post you will see this sentence-
My overall point is that if you cause no harm, injury or loss to another human being, then you should be able to live your life in peace. OFC this depends on everybody doing the same.
IF another human being believes i have transgressed against them in some way, then i can be taken to court (arrested if needs be) and for me to give an account of myself before a jury, and for that jury to decide my innocence or guilt. AND if indeed i HAVE committed a crime then i deserve any punishment the court thinks appropriate.
Would you agree this sounds sensible and fair?
I do. This is the law which i am prepared to be subject to. Its English Common Law-its there to protect us. But its been subsumed and repealed by various acts of parliament and turned into a revocable privilege rather than an absolute right!
As i said in a previous post Acts of Parliament are statutes which are defined as "legislated rules of society given the force of law by the consent of the governed" which means they are rules. And i do no consent!
You keep quoting acts of parliament as though they are the guiding principles of our society, whereas i believe that human beings living under a common held belief in core values of fairness, honesty and decency should be our guide. Backed up by our traditional common law.
OK, acts of parliament..... lets consider one...say the 1911 Parliament Act. This effectively abolished the duty of the monarch to give Royal Assent for any Bill passed through the house. So, the bedrock of our constitutional settlement has been usurped!!!!
Heres another one, there is another "law" in this country (i'll leave people guessing on this one) and if i fall foul of this ACT then i can be:
searched in the street (any money found in my pockets can be taken) have my passport revoked have my driving license suspended be sent to prison have money taken from my accounts (including savings and pension schemes) and more.........
and all this WITHOUT being found guilty of ANY crime. In a court. Sounds familiar? Like the 1930's? somewhere perhaps like......Germany? Under the Nazi's?
Well, it's the "law" in this country.
in conclusion, there IS a difference in laws and rules, sometimes the law is an ass and sometimes rules should be broken. Thats my threepenorrth.
wes pu hal (it means, loosely, good health to you)
ps, just got onto that Emzed. yeah, a "little" education is VERY dangerous.
Very interesting comments on here.This is just a note about changing attitudes to crime/criminals over last 50-60 years. The father of my Dad's best friend(School/R.A.F/worked together) was an 80 year old ex-miner in 1957 when 2 burglars broke into his house wrong move! He was 80,but still fit and active with a pick-axe handle by his bed,went downstairs and laid one out stone-cold,the other one jumped thro a closed window to escape,bobbies still "on the beat" then and within a few minutes one came around to find out why lights were on,chap told him about burglars and showed him the caught un(he started stirring,so was duly"laid-out" again) at which point bobby arrested burglar and chap.
The chap was taken to court for GBH where he was fined £10 and bound over to keep the peace.Judge called him to one side after proceedings,gave him his £10 back and said he would not have been charged if he hadn't hit the "semi-concious vulnerable burglar" at the time the bobby was there.(Obviously not his own £10,came out of judges pocket)
I agree it would be all very nice and cosy if everyone lived together in peace and harmony, just like the cocacola ad of the 70's and maybe then we wouldn't need all these rules and laws and legislation, sadly there will always be a bunch of scum sucking bottom feeders who will want to do the opposite, hence what we have.
DukeZ, you and I clearly have very different views on the extent to which "the law of the land" should impinge on or protect its subjects and I doubt we'll ever see eye to eye on it, but imagine if you will what would the country might be like if old and outdated 'laws' couldn't be amended or repealed in the light of society adapting and developing and advancing technologies and knowledge ? We'd still be living in wattle and daub huts trading goats with each other and burning people at the stake. (maybe the last bit's not a bad idea for some) I'm no fan of politicians, I can't think of more than maybe a handful who are worth a gob of spit, but Im far less of a fan of a set up where there are no structures to govern society. You'll have to PM me the nazi inspired money grabbing imprisoning law you speak of cause I cant guess it so far, unless to mean the inland revenue ? And If I have any knowledge on the subject I'll happily give a reply but it seems for now that we've reached a point of who can dig up the most obscure bit of law to baffle the other and probably most others reading this, if there's any left apart from you and me that is, but its been fun, and possibly educational for some, I'll be watching my in box.
Loner, great story about the old boy, and is a perfect example of when to stop battering the c**p out of an intruder. fair play to the judge, what a geezer.
In my opinion if someone is breaking an entry thats breaking the law... so for acting inhuman they should automatically lose all there human and lawful rights. At this time im still young enough to murder a man/men in defence and still get out of prison in time to have a nice life haha! so i will use that to my advantage! also knowing a threat to my loved ones is dead will be worth the years and i will probably get out early anyway on good behaviour or something silly due to this country being to soft! should be like the ozzys! SHOOT! then ask questions!
Yeah, i agree that we are maybe going too far from the original topic and that it is right to have some form of mechanism for making sure society runs as best as possible.
But, my point remains that, where we used to have a system of laws being created and enforced by the people (the jury system) backed up by common law (e.g Magna Carta), we now put our trust in politicians who keep coming up with new legislation, which seems to me to chip away at our rights and freedoms. A country run by lawyers who become politicians? its not the scum at the bottom that i worry about, its the scum at the top.
As you may be able to deduce, i am a big fan of personal freedom and in particular the Magna Carta. Whilst much of it is grossly outdated (how many horses the king can demand in times of war etc lmao) it is still applicable today.
Interestingly, at least to some of us, most of it has been repealed (even though the document says that it CANNOT be repealed, so long as we have a monarchy in this country) except for section 1, 9 and 39. 1 and 9 preserve the status of the church and the City of London, no surprise there! looking after the vested interest.
Article 39 says this: No freemen shall be taken or imprisoned or disseised or exiled or in any way destroyed, nor will we go upon him nor send upon him, except by the lawful judgment of his peers or by the law of the land.
Basically, it is still the LAW in this country that you must be held to account by a jury of your peers. Go into any magistrates court and watch people lining up to pay their fines-where is the jury?
edit, sorry its article 13 that relates to the city of london.
So when you say things like " Im far less of a fan of a set up where there are no structures to govern society." i completely agree!! that sounds like anarchy and im not sure thats a good idea, but maybe the anarchists would have something to say about that.
The Common law, our traditions and customs, our monarchy and our own good common sense provide a valid structure for running a decent society.
So why do we leave it to corrupt, inept and intolerant bigots in parliament, backed up by their thieving, lying, cheating scum in the City, aided and abetted by the scheming and malicious potrayers of lies, the media moguls who can always get an audience at No. 10 through the back door?
@XJR feck lad - anyone who thinks prison is a soft option......you wouldnt want to do 6 weeks never mind the 7-8 yrs youd probably get for manslaughter!
Something i said? Haha...Kwakgirl how do you know ive not ever been to prison? and for longer then 6 weeks? :-) also i have friends of sort in prison right now! one for man slaughter! He has a PS3 and lcd tv and gets fed 3 times a day... why would he even want to ever leave? and you have read the news and past comments, criminals sewing there victims for an injury caused during a crime! i stand by what i say this country and its laws crossed with rights is a mess. and its soft. ;-)
Thats fine. Your obviously very opinionated. I will let you think what you like haha!
Also my names *Ethen* Not XJR thats what bike i have.
My XJR is good but im pretty sure its cant type haha!
And kwakgirl me and everyone else is welcome to free speech/opinions. And yes maybe what i wrote was abit far fetched but i am angry at this burgular situation just like everyone else. it really bugs me! anyway im not here to fall out with anyone especially other bikers.
May i add after just looking at your profile...especially Bikers that have one of my most favourite bikes! at the correct year and the correct colour. haha!
Not fell out with anyone and not particularly opinionated! nor do have any problem at all with anyone elses opinion but never assume wot the press says about anything is correct or that 2nd hand information is accurate. Your view of prison......well its incorrect. And not saying people in there deserve anything just saying its NOT a soft option despite what the daily mail might say!
I know a few lads that have done a few stretches and an older guy who has been in and out over the last 40 odd years, he says compared to prison he was sent when he was young the times he has done a stretch recently have been a luxury..... But that just one old guys opinion..... FFS there's an open prison near my city, the fecker get to go out during the day home vista at weekend...yeah hard times for crimes to society....... Now being in prison isn't going to be nice but if you do the crime do the time.....funny in this country how you can get a longer stretch for robbing money from rich people than you would for murder...... I remember a case in Peterborough on off duty deputy chief of police caught a guy leaning inside the broken window off his car...did the citizens arrest as he was off duty, CPS wouldn't charge him as he said it was already broken he just leaned in to see if everything was ok! No proof he did it....despite 70 previous offences or may have been even more...he was 21 I think....why wasn't that scum in prison already with 70 previous on his record..TOO SOFT! End off
Simple, once you step uninvited over the threshold you are scum you leave your human rights outside, if you cant take the heat DONT step into the kitchen............................
the justice system in this country is a total joke.paedophiles get put in nice places cos theyre poorly they got an ilness,rapists get 6mths,murderers get life but life is 15yrs feckin joke,life should mean life,if you take a life you give yours in return.if you steal you get your hands chopped off,if your a paedo you should be hung up by your feckin balls.i have no faith in this countries justice system.and just for the record prisoners do get tv,s etc etc they can get to learn a trade and get qualified for bloody free.they should get NOTHING in my books f**k human rights they gave them up when they commited the crime.would you be so complacent if it was you that was raped,or your child molested,or one of your loved ones killed for a tenner.and please dont tell me it doesnt happen cos it feckin well does every god damn day
![Burglars in your home, what would you do? (3) - Forums [Biker Match]](/images/backgrounds/strips/8mobileLQ.jpg)
![Burglars in your home, what would you do? (3) - Forums [Biker Match]](/images/backgrounds/strips/8desktopLQ.jpg)
