I've just deleted a quality Wannabe-Stylee-Rant on media spin... Wish all the forums I visit had the buttons the same way round! Even back page couldn't save me this time.
Anyway. Suffice to say that just because it's in black and white, it's no reason to believe it's true. Photographic/video/audio evidence? Same. It's at the least, taken out of context and at the other extreme, it's frequently staged.
Bear that in mind the next time you see a politician who's allegedly having an affair with a nightclub hostess, posing with his wife, who's pledged to stand by him no matter what, and the other female in question invited to spend the weekend with the family, along with her "boyfriend". All standing together, smiling for all they're worth for the cameras. Yeah, right.
Still, it's a nice little earner for the other woman and the "boyfriend", so long as they keep their gobs shut. But who would believe them, even if they blabbed? "Everyone" saw them on the telly!
Unfortunately, the "evidence" is then used by the "boyfriend"'s real life wife as grounds for a divorce. Ho hum.
WB - The Dutch government/justice decided after his film that he had done nothing wrong and that he wasn't to face trial for his short film.However, so many muslims kicked up a storm that they've been bullied into putting him on trial for the film.If you see the film, you'll realise he's not inciting racial hatred and so the case wont get far in court, they've just got to appease the muslims (as always).
He's been going around all the European countries recently talking to parliaments and governments about his film, none have had a problem with it. It's simply good old discussion which is how a democracy is supposed to move forward.
Dressing up as a Nazi? For me that isn't just a fancy dress, it's a statement! The Nazis killed so many of our grandparents and great-grandparents, nevermind all the jews. To dress as a Nazi is absolutely unacceptable - especially by an English Prince.
AJ - what are you talking about? I'm opening a debate that has kicked up a storm in England (Where i'm from) and Holland (Where I live) and so is something that affects me in my own life right now (I'm getting lots of stick, and getting into lots of debates with my Dutch friends and colleagues). This topic isn't about how crap the UK is, it's about politics between my homeland and my new home. It's a discussion also about freedom of speach, religion, homeland security and much more. So get off your high horse! And while I was in the UK i did stand up for my beliefs. One such example was the Rochdale Off Road biking campaign, when I had to give many speaches in the town hall and answer questions from hundreds of members of the public.... but I was a one-man band because nobody else cares to stand up for what they believe in.
TC - he does indeed know how to play the media. And he may not be perfect, but of all the MPs over here he's the only one prepared to stand up and say things that others site on through fear of being called racist. The public will never believe in 100% of what their elected politician believes in, but you have to make a trade off for the things you do and don't believe it. If I could vote here (Which I can't yet) then I may vote for him cos he does support the things I believe in. I would look closely into everything he believes though, to make sure there's nothing that I don't believe in.
One thing you quote is the foreign brides thing. It's a huge problem here with the moroccan and turkish. Each one man who has obtained Dutch citizenship can marry and bring over 8+ brides, and there are many examples that I've read about.
Re the islamic headwear at public functions - damn right it should be banned! THAT is a threat to public safety as you've no idea who's under the clothing (A peaceful, lady muslim or a mad terrorist with a bomb vest?)
What's a feeding camp???
Ban islamic schools who use public money to send their students to Mecca every year and breed hatred of christians and jews in children from an early age - yes ban them! 1/4 of Dutch-muslims agree the 9/11 attacks were 'just', 62% don't believe in freedom of speach!
Don't understand the limitation on public TV, that's just weird. We've only got 3 public channels here anyhow, the rest are private.
Remember also that if he was the PM, he couldn't just implement all his personal beliefs without going through the houses of parliament and voting with other MPs. We also have the house of lords here like in the UK who have to approve laws. So it's not like he's gonna be able to implement loads of ridiculous laws on his own. You've listed his beliefs, which he's entitled to - and all other MPs are entitled to disagree with. The Dutch will also stand up to politicians who try to implement things they don't agree with.
And I didn't know he called his party group wilders, lol that's quite funny. He was a member of another party but disagreed with them so went on his own - hence his party's name.
MT - i agree about his hair, it's ridiculous. lol. I think you're wrong about him wanting to restrict other peoples' beliefs too. He's not saying "You shouldn't be allowed to support Islam", he's saying "You shouldn't believe that you can kill others in the name of Islam, and so should rip out the parts that tell Imams to kill christians and jews". The book contains passages instructing Imams to murder in the name of God... Geert is 100% right to say nobody in OUR society has the right to believe in this and that they SHOULD change their religion if they want to keep it in Europe (All other religions have changed and developed over the years, inc Christianity.... Islam has not though and is still living in backwards times). Almost every terrorist attack around the world is in the name of Islam, so those muslims living in our countries should be prepared to say "I don't believe in our book, the Koran, being used as an excuse for violence and I'm willing to remove these passages from the book". We all have the right to believe whatever we want to believe, and we shouldn't follow one particular book just because you've been brought up to do so. If a muslim swears on all of the Koran, am I to take it then that he wants to kill me as a Christian, or my friends who are Gay, or Jewish etc? If I'm not to think that - then show me you don't believe in them foul sections of the Koran. The Bible doesn't say "Go out and murder all non-Christians in the name of God and may your place in heaven be saved with 70 virgins", and that's why Geert doesn't compaign to ban the Bible. He doesn't want to stop people's good beliefs, just the violent idelogies that are not welcome anywhere in civilised, democratic societies.
Remember also he was invited. He didn't ask to come along. The film was being shown in the houses of parliament and he was asked to go along to discuss it.Also - i did 'piss off'. 2 years ago when I got sick of it there. :-) And I think you're wrong in saying that citizens can fix Britain by working, paying taxes etc. I've always lives a good, hard-working life, paying lots of tax and standing up for my beliefs etc.... it got my nowhere. And why? Because it's those who DONT work, DONT pay taxes and DONT act responsibly etc that have the biggest mouths and always get what they want. Oh, and I've always voted - just seems everyone else votes the opposite, so my thoughts and ideas were never represented and never were gonna be. What were my options? Keep fighting for what I want and keep voting for the opposition? No cos it's pointless, so I left.
WB - what is that example you're talking about? lol you totally lost me.
BUT, we're all missing the point. It's become a discussion on religion, media and Geert Wilders beliefs. I wanted to discuss the UK's decision to ban another MP from another EU country. Would they ban the prime minister of France coming to the UK if they had certain beliefs? Or the King of Spain?
But I think what we are discussing IS about the UK's decision to refuse entry to Widers...
As I see it, It is not actually about freedom of speech as the media have sensationalised but about security to those around him and the harm he will do to race relations while he is over here. Of course he is going to bleat about being oppressed because he has been refused entry - that is his job...
But then I am biased, I just don't get a good vibe about him.
but how far does it go? So next the Dutch ban that BNP guy from coming here. Then the French start banning other MPs from other countries etc.
At what point does it stop? Are all countries just going to ban MPs who have different or controversial beliefs (Whether them beliefs are right or wrong is not the point)?
Why should one person in the home office be given the power to make the decision of who comes in and who doesn't? If anything it should be given a vote. I was watching TV last night and it seems the majority of MPs think he should have been allowed in.
Looks at all the extremist preachers from middle-eastern and arab countries that are allowed into the UK with open arms. They're even allowed to preach hatred on the streets of London without being arrested (Or at least they were until recently).
This European MP can't even get into another EU country WITH AN INVITATION.
It is a real example Matt... Just don't really want to quote names on a
public forum as it never came to public light! It's bad enough when the
creditors come knocking at my door... I don't want to attract the
Whitehall mandarins too!
There
are 2 reasons I don't buy papers any more... 1 is the politician
example referred to above... the other is a matter of public record...
Look up Colin Wallace and read the book "Who Framed Colin Wallace" if
you ever want to see a prime example of the power that the authorities
and the media can have over one person's life if they so desire.
The
papers at the time of his arrest/trial referred to Colin as a "Walter
Mitty" character, obsessed with guns... Pictures of him surrounded by a
cache of weapons were published in the papers... No mention was made of
the fact that it was a photo of an IRA arms cache which he and others
had uncovered and that it was standard practice to photograph 1 person
alongside such hauls, to give an indication of size.
But back to
your point... The UK Govt has put this legislation into place, to try
and have a framework to prevent "incitement to religious hatred"...
They have to apply it to all. They can't just apply it to loony Muslim
clerics, but welcome anti-Islamic folk with open arms.
This man
may not be anti individual Muslims, but he certainly appears to be
anti-Islam? Which would slot right into the incitement legislation here.
From
what you've said, the Dutch authorities are in pretty much the same
position, being forced to appease folk by putting said chappy on trial.
Damned if you do and damned if you don't!
I wonder if
it was a question of timing? When did the Dutch authorities declare
that he was to stand trial? Did our HoL invite him before that
development, and subsequently the Home Office put a ban on him entering the
country?
Matt "Why should one person in the home office be given the power to make the decision of who comes in and who doesn't? If anything it should be given a vote. "
It was, the election, and they can be voted out. Which leads onto TC's comment
"And I think you're wrong in saying that citizens can fix Britain by working, paying taxes etc. I've always lives a good, hard-working life, paying lots of tax and standing up for my beliefs etc.... it got my nowhere."
You left out the part about voting, ie the majority choosing who represents them. Not everyone will agree with that choice, but that's the price for democracy. It makes me laugh when people say that there's no democracy in Britain. A more accurate description would be that a large proportion of those eligible to vote can't be bothered.
As for banning a book because of particular passages, what a ridiculous notion! Passages taken out of context mean nothing. I believe I'm right in saying that the Koran also says that Muslims should integrate into the society in which they live. It also says that they should obey the laws of the country or state in which they live. If you ban the book because of its statements then you must logically ban practitioners of the religion as they (by that logic) are killers. It's scare mongering nonsense.
Personally, I'd prefer it if all organised religions were banned. Level the playing field, allow people to believe in who or what they want. However, I'm in the minority with that view, and as I accept that I live in a democracy then I accept that the majority view will prevail.
Matt "BUT, we're all missing the point. It's become a discussion on religion, media and Geert Wilders beliefs. I wanted to discuss the UK's decision to ban another MP from another EU country. Would they ban the prime minister of France coming to the UK if they had certain beliefs? Or the King of Spain?"
The answer should be yes, as persons deemed unacceptable to a democratically elected government do not have a right to enter this or any other country. Would you allow someone else to decide who enters your home irrespective of your personal views on the person entering? No. So while we may or may not agree with the choices made, we gave the power to the people making the choices. They can and should exercise thier right to choose.If we feel that they have made bad choices then we can vote them out if our opinions are in the majority.
Seems to me people want freedom of speech, expression, and democracy only as long as it doesn't go against their individual opinions and preferences. Democracy means that the majority view carries. Many have tried and failed to find an alternative to democracy. While it is less than perfect, it's a long way ahead of the alternatives.
i assure you that the majority view wouldn't be to ban the Dutch MP. Even those who strongly disagree with him say he should be allowed into the UK to discuss his concerns and views.
I agree that too many people don't vote. I've voted since the day I was given the right to.
The whole system is a joke though. All politicians are jerks. You vote for your local MP and not the government, it's just whoever has the majority seats. You might like your local MP but dislike all the others from the same party.
I too think all relgions should be banned. They do no good for anything, and the nonsense behind them all is totally unproven through science. People should make up their own beliefs and ideas, without following someone else's that were set into a book.
As for religious texts ordering iffy practices, the Bible has a few choice passages about homosexuality
Lev 18:22-23 "You shall not lie with a male
as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."
Lev 20:13 "If there
is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of
them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to
death."
1 Cor 6:9 "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not
inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators,
nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals"
2 from the Old Testament, so that covers both Christianity &
Judaism and 1 there from the New Testament, so that's just the
Christians.
Not sure whether that's supposed to be God putting them to death or an instruction to believers?
The Bible's not all fluffy and cuddly
The term "Sodomy" (Greek term for a homosexual = Sodomite, i.e. one who
comes from Sodom) arises from the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah... and
look what happened to that lot! (Excuse the pun)
Welcome to the forums, by the way, imagoMT!
All good stuff apart from incorrectly crediting me with a comment about votes etc. at the start of your last post....
I personally think we have all been side tracked and are missing an important point that Matt made in his second post on the first page of this thread.....
You can spend sperm???
WB - I'm not saying the Bible is good. I don't believe in any religion, they're all a disgrace.
But I have the right to say so and openly discuss my views with a believer of any religion (Including my entire RC family).
The Bible doesn't say that you should go and murder non-believers though!
Dutch calling people ugly!! i was at a wedding last summer where a Dutch family allowed there kids to playwith 'namchucks' in Church and what an ugly bunch!!all tatto's an skinheaded an fat![i thought they came from Weymouth at first!!] sorry for diversifying!!
fat? I didn't think there was a fat person in Holland! I've not seen any. Everyone is super-fit here cos they cycle so much.
And the Dutch are good looking folks. The girls are all hot, and my mum couldn't believe her eyes when she saw the guys here lol.
Must have just been the wedding you were at TM :-)
WB I so agree with you about the name calling thing, I believe that prince Harrys "name calling" was taken completely out of context. My son is 18 and has an extremely close group of friends of all 'colours" one particular coloured lad refers to HIMSELF as "the paki" and the others frequently refer to him in this way, the fact that they feel so at ease with each other to behave in this way is surely something to be applauded? I would suspect that something of a similar nature happened with prince Harry. The "nazi fancy dress", well I totally agree that the nazis committed terrible atrocities, but then so did the Romans,The vikings,and all the many plunderers of this isle of angels, but it doesn't stop us dressing up in outfits complete with hemets with horns protruding out of them ( which apparently the vikings never actually did!!) Surely, it's because the nazis are still in living memory that such offense is taken at his"unthinking" choice of fancy dress. I'm sure for lads such as Harry, the nazis do seem as ancient as the vikings,and the thought of wearing a nazi uniform gets classified along with the other infamous noteables The Red Heads... yes well the royal family were amply peppered with the titian breed, going back to the most famous of them Willie the conqueror, it always amazes me that there are not more of them in evidence today!!
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