Oh hang on... I've just re-read Matt's post as I fortuitously clicked on P1 instead of the end of the thread
its similar here already, you have to be 18 to get a 125 and you're not allowed to ride with L plates.
I stand corrected... maybe it is worth blaming Europe alone
What's the training like in the Netherlands then Matt?
Before taking the CBT last year, I was absolutely determined to go the Direct Access route... I soon changed my mind when I realised how monumentally awful I was at riding though! By choice, I decided that "serving my apprenticeship" on a 125 with L's would be infinitely better (for me personally) than cramming to get through a DAS course and winging it...
I have to say that without the option to get plenty of road practice in on a 125, I'd probably decide that riding's not for me and remain pillion forever. (Which may just happen anyway, as I'm even further away from getting a 125 than I was this time last year, despite clutching my CBT certificate now *ahem*)
OMG I would not have been able to nearly clock up 4k experience in preparation for these Modules 1 and 2.....its been totally valuable experience for me the last few weeks on Mini V...Ive been out all hours in all weathers to all destinations...the benefits of learning alone is so evident when I passed Module 1 with NO faults...the other lads there didnt cos they are not going on the road enough...restricted due to the sheer expense of having an instructor and having to pay for tuition...it was worth every penny buying Mini V....and Ive had so much enjoyment out of her...With the amount of experience I have gained..I feel confident on the Honda 600CBF that Im using with my instructor....I would have hated to have jumped straight from my CBT onto the DAS course..I would not have been experienced enough to handle the 600....by a long way!
Yes WB it was Cataraptor that put the post on before about the EU 3rd directive. He has seen this thread just before leaving for work this morning and said "I can feel a long post coming on! I will see to it tonight" so we will all have wait with bated breath for the facts politics and the lobby groups actions towards the 3rdEU over the last few years at least for the time he was still lobbying. All I know is that all political parties were asked for their support towards being favourable towards motorcyclists and the only party interested and turned up was UKIP... thats why they got my vote recently Anyhow I will look forward to reading Trevors post later. Bless him!
Hi Wana Poor Cata has come home from work and is under the weather. Not too bad but a bit worse for wear maybe the two bottles of wine we had or the eat as much as you like Thai buffet last night, he will be writing about this topic but not tonight.
Sorry about the delay on getting back to you all on this but I had to help with some (major) work on my Trooper - a 4X4 is always good as bikers revenge - and needed an early night for an early morning. It's done for the time being and so I can devote time to this missive - if you can stay with me.
I was actively lobbying up to 2 years ago including in Europe in conjunction with FEMA so I can tell you what transpired and what some of the apparent thinking was with some of the parties involved.
All the nonsense for motorcycles in the 3rd EC Driving Licence was as a result of the European Commission's MO which is called the ratchet. Once a directive on any topic is in place they then progressively make it stricter with motorcycle licensing a case in point. They've done the same for noise and emissions from all vehicles as well.
Unfortunately, the European Parliament recognised that there was a casualty problem with motorcycling but supported the Commission's knee-jerk solution. It's the same logic as leg protectors from a few years back which goes motorcyclists have a lot of leg injuries so leg protectors must reduce them. No one thought about whether they were effective and that they could transfer injuries making them more severe in the process. Some MEPs were sincere in their naive beliefs, some were prejudiced against motorcycling but others saw it as a chance to enhance their standing like Grosch, the Belgian MEP who was rapporteur (saw the directive through Parliament) and British Labour MEP Gary Titley who supported him ignoring representatons from BMF and MAG. While Conservatives were quite supportive, the only serious opposition to the 3rd EC DLD was from UKIP and its partners in the Democracy and Independence group. While I believe we should stay in Europe, it badly needs a shake-up which is why I voted UKIP at the European elections.
Linked to this was increasing the age for Direct Access from 21 to 24 addressing a problem which did not exist. Most people in this age group would have problems getting insurance for the most powerful bikes and experience rather than age is the problem. Hence the over 35s with larger disposable incomes buying 1000 sports bikes fresh from DAS is the issue. The current practice for training on a 500 twin also increases their aspirations since they want to buy something 'better' than they learned on. I had repeatedly called for log book training for DAS in which, like CBT candidates would have to undertake several modules like night riding, high speed rural roads, motorways, etc while in company with an instructor and satisfy him/her that they had been mastered before being allowed to apply for the motorcycle test. Instead, MEPs went for the dog's dinner of complex proposals which I doubt many of them understood or had considered their negative implications.
I should also add that there was a weak European motorcycle lobby in spite of the efforts of BMF, MAG and MCI. FIM did little either way, FEMA's staff at that time chose to compromise (= rolling over without a fight) and ACEM the European motorcycle manufacturers' organisation not only rolled over, dismissing everything said by MCI representatives suggesting a repeat but far worse of the effects of the UK Transport Act 1981, but even prepared to comply in advance with their product range. As a result of this frustration, BMF and MAG organised, with Dutch and Irish support, a demo in Brussels which upset the FEMA Secretariat and led to the resignation of one of the roll-over artists while the other was leaving anyway. FEMA with Aline Delhaye as General Secretary is a much stronger organisation willing to support motorcyclists interests rather than collaborating with those who sought to oppress us.
With all the complexity of 3 categories of motorcycles with power, capacity, age of elegibility requirements and minimum periods of being limited to them the issue of a testing/training requirement to progress to the next category was not considered in detail. However, it did not appear to impinge on the UK practice of riding unsupervised on limited power motorcycles after completing CBT.
What may have occured to the Commission is that in the UK, with the facility of the provisional licence, the measures to be introduced after 2011 as well as the 2 module test from this year will lead to permanent learners who just renew their CBTs every 2 years. With the provisional licence virtually unknown in mainland Europe, the Commission will want do away with it and no doubt our gold plating friends the DSA will want to introduce something more complex to suit their own ends. We need the Government to draw a line in the sand and insist that the provisional driving licence has served us well and is sacrosanct.
What is apparent to us but not necessarily the bureaucrats and eurocrats is the value of enabling riders to practice without the pressure of instructors constantly bellowing in their ears and gaining the confidence and competence to go on to take their motorcycle tests. There's plenty of evidence in posts on this forum and I have seen Moonstone's confidence and abilities increase in leaps and bounds since she bought her own bike. After mastering the basics, gentle encouragement from friends is so much better and more cost effective than only being allowed out with an instructor on the end of a one-way radio.
So, it was instigated and developed by people I wouldn't trust to sit the right way round on a lavatory let alone a motorcycle and they still appear to be calling the shots. It's a national issue now and one of interpreting the directive so it's up to our representatives to persuade the Government with these arguments to continue with the custom and practice that's served us so well.
i see ya point bc and well done again, but most are not lucky enough to be out all the time during the day etc, they can only get out at weekends etc, but i agree that experience is a big help, but beware once you have a bigger bike, its alot diff when you have more power and performance
Wow Cata I knew it would be a long one but you gave it some there matey.
All good factual stuff too.
What can we, as motorcyclists, do now to help and support the bodies to fight our cause? or is it all stamped as sold??
I was one of those people like so many on here that was more than happy to get out there on my own 125 and gain more confidence with out an instructor plus not a lot of people can afford an endless ammount of lessons so what can be done to stop this.
Well done Lin sounds like you are coming on great now, thanks Cata for all the help and support you are giving Lin, it's having good mates around us to ride out with, encourage us and offer constructive critisism when needed that helps us so much when we are learning and not always just from instructors.
My kids never thought I would ever move onto a motorbike from my broomstick.
From your post, Cruiser Gal, it looks like you're a subscriber to that consumer magazine Witch
To answer Moonstone's question, the fight over the future of motorcycle testing and training is now in the UK. I don't believe that there is anything in the 3rd EC DLD which specifically excludes riding low-powered motorcycles on a provisional licence although the European Commission clearly don't like it. Negotiations will be through the National Motorcycle Council of which BMF, MAG, MCI and the trade body (forgot its name) are members. All we can do is to support the riders' groups and call for them to oppose any changes to the provisional licence scheme which I'm sure they will do anyway and, if they start any campaigns to actively participate in them. The Government needs to be persuaded to stand up to the Commission and the DSA needs to be restrained from gold plating. BMF and MAG do e-mail-outs calling for support on campaigns to which members can subscribe. This will be upon us sooner than we think and we should all be prepared to write to MPs, Ministers, etc and even participate in demos if it comes to that.
FEMA should also be supported through these two organisatons to prevent any more of this c**p in the future. It's now an effective body representing riders' rights which is prepared to fight rather than rolling over at the least hint of trouble.
If you want to defend biking, sign up with MAG or BMF arm yourself with as many statistics as possible, write lots of letters/emails to your MP and the Transport minister, go see your MP at surgery and convince them to support common sense.The "Green" card is popular at the moment, if learner bikes are driven off the road how many extra single occupant car trips will be made etc. etc. It's boring, tedious and time consuming but unfortunately it's the only game in town.
I've been advocating this type of action/involvement for 30+ years prof, but it always seems to fall on deaf ears
I even started a local MAG group to raise awareness and to be fair one or two did take it seriously for a while.
But as soon as it became more than a social club and people were asked for time/support or just a little effort it became less important.
If I remember right, it was around the time when the 2 part test was introduced and they were "up in arms" about the "automatic ban" after 2 years if not passed part 2.
Then there was the "leg protector" debacle and a host of other proposed legislation.
What's that oft quoted phrase? about doin nothin about all these things that dont directly affect you and then they come for YOU
I'm sure someone wil find the quote and post it...
Whatever,
Wise words though
You may not think it concerns you NOW, but if you dont get off your butt and DO something, It'll be your turn next
Excellent post Cata , and as you state so clearly , why reinvent the wheel ? i basically have only one question that needs answering : why does it appear that EU countries are targeting motorcyclists when we don't significantly contribute to traffic congestion , pollution and fuel consumption ? this targeting does'nt apply in most other countries . Thanx Prof , Emzed and others for clarifying this confusing state of affairs as well.
I believe there to be two main reasons why the EU institutions target motorcycling rather than other road user groups:
1) We're a relatively easy target since we will never have the clout of the car industry and many of the motorcycling representative bodies have rolled over all too readily.
2) There's the customary hand wringing over casualties and although motorcycle casualty rates have been falling for years, occupants of passenger vehicles have been provided with increased protection. The result is that car casualty rates have fallen faster and motorcyclists are becoming an increasing proportion of the overall number of casualties. There's also the ongoing problem that the hand wringers who want to be doing something do not consider who's at fault when there is a motorcycle casualty and so target the victim's vehicle group rather that the perp's.
I could also add that there's also good old fashioned prejudice which is still alive and well even in countries which accept motorcycling and it's rationalised into 'concern' about casualties.
Maybe time would be better spent bringing in new laws that insist on correct CLOTHES being worn
Its only illegal to not have a helmet on (unless your of a faith that prevents it) the number of times I (& I am sure you all too) have seen people on a warm day in T hirts, vests, no tops, shorts trainers or sandles just beggers belief.
There would be less injuries & fatalities on the roads if people wore clothing that was right for riding a bike & not for a summer strole on the beach !!!
As always Idiots spoil it for the rest.
***vent over ***
The points that Cataraptor said are right but lets not forget there are also the teenagers riding like complete twats on their mopeds which people see and the public tar all learners with the same brush. Not just here but Europe as well.
Unfortunately there are so many of them filling time before they get their Escort with big bore exhaust,that the powers that be just notice them and not the real learner that has an interest in bikes,so punishing the genuine bike rider.
And its usually those Rick that are wearing clothes that will result in nasty injuries if they come off.
I have a 19 year old who has been told, he is not getting his bike (stuey once I have finished) unless he has full set of correct clothing & that I will remain Stueys owner till he can prove to be a responsible rider ... fortunatly being raised round me his responce was am not THAT daft that I wouldnt want propper clothes ***still not 100% sure on that comment ... after all he is half his dad ***
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