rational enough to know & say that the system DOES need sorting out first, not easy i admit but its where you have to start.
The real question is not wether we should allow STATE murder if that what you want to call it, its wether allowing the death penalty to be bought back would reduce murders on the general PUBLIC, i think is would !
Will reply later KG, slow typist and this simple question - Death Penalty~ Should it be brought back? - raises more questions than answers methinks. !!
Quite possibly, but if they are so far outside of society that they think murder is acceptable in the first place then would it make a difference to them? I really don't know
would challenge anyone to google stefan kiszko then tell me you can have a death penalty in a judicial system that is so flawed.
of course you cant make a case for everyone not being deserving of execution....but ONE miscarriage of justice is one to many. now im really gonna sit on my hands.
@smarty - i worked for the Guardian for 8 yrs of my life its the 2nd best job i ever had and i have no probloem admitting that i read it from time to time - if its some sort of insult it was wasted on me! rather that than the Daily Hate (sorry Mail!)
Weirdoraptor In: Brough, E. Yorks
Posts: 2087
Karma:
I think a life for a life is a bit harsh, as not everyone who kills a person intends to do so, which is why there are terms such as manslaughter, 1st, 2nd, 3rd degree murder etc.
But if someone is found without any doubt whatsoever to have premeditated the taking of a human life, then their own right to live must be questioned in my opinion.
Ive always believed in the three strikes and your out, once could be a mistake... but these peeps that keep offending - lets save some govmt money and bye bye.
invalid characters In: West Sussex
Posts: 647
Karma:
Good idea Kaz' perhaps as a society we could put a cost on life and if that cost is exceeded by locking up petty criminals apply the death penalty to them too!
Certainly the sentencing/time served needs sorting out IMO, but to THEN think it justifies restoring the death penalty is just ridiculous.
It depends what purpose the death penalty is to serve. If it's as a punishment then, no; as it becomes state sanctioned revenge. Don't get me wrong I'm all for good old fashioned revenge but it would turn into a fiasco if left to the state.
If, on the other hand, capital punishment is to be used as a deterrent then I think it should be brought back. When macho chavs see their mates spraying piss everywhere as they do the Tyburn jig, they'll think twice about knuckling their way through life.
There is another alternative that's much more practical. Put them to use by bringing back the gladiator pits. A couple of crims scrapping to the death at Wembley every Saturday would sell out quicker than an England game ever will.
I'd have no hesitation putting to death pedos and bike thieves. I would not regard it as an act of revenge so much, rather a way to make sure they never come back into society. Keeping them locked up costs a lot of £££s. Money that could go to better causes.
We do not live in a civilised society, I dont call queing up all night outside Selfridges for the New Year sales and then stampeding on the heads of your fellow citizens civilised at all! For what? to get a discount on an already overpriced priced pair of shoes....
Back to topic. If there is concrete evidence of murder and suchlike, I wouldnt have a problem with capital punishment.
bring back the death sentence, there may be one or two wrong conviction but if they help to deter other innocent people from being killed then it a price we have to pay
Do to them what they are found to do to others... there is enough definate evidence like DNA, forensics, etc nowadays to make sure the right person is convicted and dealt with how they dealt with their victim(s), and if that means death, then so be it
To re-iterate Dyna’s original question:
My view on this is, learn from our past mistakes. Meaning, in the past we have hung (and other ways) prisoners who were later totally exonerated from all guilt. So my feeling is, if someone is WITHOUT doubt guilty of a class A crime, like Murder, then they should be put to death. But, crimes of passion, eg: Wife kills wife beater should not fall into the above category......see the grey area?
My view is that there should be a death penalty for certain crimes IF there is un-refutable evidence.
I don’t think this should include murder ‘across the board’ as there are many grey areas, as you say DT.
The wife of the wife beater for example, if she were to kill him in the act of him beating her, that would construe self defence and even if she waited several hours, until he was asleep for example, before stuffing the bread knife into his chest, I’m sure that would be reduced to ‘diminished responsibility’ or ‘whilst the balance of her mind was disturbed’ by any competent barrister.
If I refer to my example of Sarah Payne, then I FIRMLY believe that should fall into the required criteria.
KG’s example of Stefan Kiszko creates the other end of the argument against.
I must admit it’s a very valid point and he, as she states, would have been executed, by ur standard, as it was a "nailed on" conviction! except he didnt do it.
This brings up the point many of you have made about the judicial system needing a major over hall.
So maybe we look at something like they have in the US, where convicted killers are held for some time, years & years in some cases, before taken for execution.
This could give time for pardons, retrials, enquires, new evidence or appeals to take place. Or further prove the guilt (in some way).
This question, and KG’s example has made me think further than my initial response and thoughts of a resounding YES.
But my opinion in itself still remains YES provided all criteria, whatever & however, is met because there are people out there that do have absolutely no regard or respect for life.
I could never sanction anyone being paid by the state, or as a taxpayer - me, to have the role of legitimatly executing offenders, it is barbaric.
Anyway I can see how people can be driven to some things in life, including murder and even rape - I'm not saying that rape is forgivable, by the way. But I certainly don't think that murder is always unjustified or even always deserves a custodial sentence.
I am such a hypocrite though, because I agree wholeheartedly with Rochchick1965. Where child abuse is concerned it's a completely different matter. Anyone who can commit a sexual act on a child, or even cause the abuse to perpetuate by using child pornography, should never be allowed to exist in society. They should definitely never be released back into society if they are ever caught.
If anyone ever touched either of my children, there would be no need for a state executioner because I know that I could pull the lever or stick the needle in just to make sure they never got a chance to do it again.
But even bringing back the death penalty for child abuse has it's problems. The powers that be say that to do so would drive more peadophiles to murder, because often as the offender and victim are linked, forensic evidence can not prove anything, it's only the victim that can point the police in the right direction.
So what do you do?
The unfortunate thing is though, a lot of the time child abusers are allowed to walk even though it is clear that they are guilty and there is a victim to point the finger. Often the CPS consider the child is too young to stand the trauma of a trial, or it goes to Court and the victim is 'tripped up' by the defence team. I don't know how the police teams who deal with such crimes are able to sleep at night, they really do deserve a medal for being able to handle these monsters without resorting to barbarism.
- This fence is killing my arse!!!
Pointless even debating this topic any further as with the lilly livered politicians and "politically correct" activists who haven't actually suffered the real effects of crime and in some cases don't even reside in the UK, the death penalty will never be re-introduced.
FFS in this country you are breaking the law if you're terminally ill and decide to end your life early and ask someone to help you.
We live in a twisted and morally broken country with no proper justice system for the victims of crime and no proper deterrents for the perpetrators, whatever crime they have committed. Would the last person to leave please turn out the lights ?
Not looking to start a lynch mob, just looking for a rebalancing of the Human Rights Act where the rights of the victim are put above the rights of the perpetrator. And yes the lilly livered lot can always cite a few cases where miscarriages of justice have taken place, Derek Bentley etc, but they can't name all the people who have been senselessly murdered because their is no deterrent now, Gary Newlove, Sarah Payne, the two small girls in Sotham murdered by Ian Huntly etc etc. It's unfortunate in the past there was some "collateral damage" and a few incidents of miscarriages of justice, but that is infinitely more palatable than the lack of justice the country now suffers from, and the forensic investigation techniques are now so well developed that a perpetrator can be confirmed beyond any doubt. Horsham a hot bed of serious crime is it ? have a high incidence of knife crime in Horsham do you ? No I didn't think so. Your opinion is bound to be different than someone who lives in a city or who has experienced serious crime first hand. They are perfectly entitled to their opinion as you are to yours. After all freedom of speech isn't solely confined to the Guardian reading fraternity is it ?
wouldnt have thought bournmouth was a hotbed of crime either! and neither is where i live, which is why i chose to live here. BTW last time i looked County Antrim was still part of the UK being in the irish province of Ulster, which has of course had more than its fair share of miscarriages of justice.
Theres no evidence that a death penalty acts as any sort of deterent....what it actually does in the US is condemn those who cant afford the best lawyer while those with money can buy their way out of almost anything. There are disproportionate numbers of blacks, poor and illiterate on death row compared to the number of murders committed by white middle class people.
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