RustyKnight In: Newton Aycliffe
Posts: 2462
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Lamble,
I'm deadly serious! LOL I've just watched a video on counter steering and had a go but it feels totally alien and not something I'd fancy doing at any rate of knots! Obviously something I need to practice but I have covered over 2k in the past month, mostly on twisties and haven't needed to use it yet!! Training is a good thing, i'm an ex plant instructor so all for it and i've already joined the IAM.
I don't like the term "counter steering", It can give the wrong idea. You can practice the effects even in a straight line. Do this gently at first. In a straight line push gently on the right bar and see what happens.You go to the right, it's all about gyroscopic effect on the front wheel. So when you approach a left bend push gently on the left bar and the bike tips in.
I think RustyKnight MUST do counter-steering, surely it comes naturally once you've been riding a bit? He probably doesn't know he's doing it. I didn't lol
If you don't use counter steering in a bend, the first time you over cook it, you will lose the front end as you'll be fighting the bike's natural tendency to want to run straight on. Pushing the right bar to go left will further reduce the ability to turn and a juddering will occur as the tyre fights in a parallax to carry its gyroscopic force in one direction.
It doesn't matter if it feels alien now, keep using it and practising, even though it seems counter intuitive. It's effects come into play at approximately 12-15 mph and above, below that your current method is okay.
Tim, if you don't like the term counter steering, what do you think it should be called, because counter steering seems to be well entrenched? Also what ideas do you think it gives that are wrong?
It would appear that here and in the States most accidents where riders are not in a collision with another vehicle, occur on bends, and most of those suffering are new, or born agains. I'm not wishing to act as a scare monger, or an I'm better than you, but 2,000 miles experience isn't what I'd want to base an assessment of my riding skills on and I'd certainly not dismiss a tried and tested method of cornering, as approved almost universally, because nothing had happened in 2,000 miles. If you can't counter steer and our paths do cross on a ride, please let me know in advance, as in all honest RK, I don't want you in front of, or behind me on the road.
OK,here's a simple explanation of "counter steering"
Most of us will have owned a pushbike
I suspect at sometime you will have wheeled it along whilst holding the saddle
As you wheel it you may well have encountered "counter steering" if you lean the bike towards you the front wheel wants to FALL in that direction, or away from you, the wheel wants to go that way.
Now, when you are on a motorbike and you lean into a corner, the bike wants to FALL that way !
What we do (whether subconciously or deliberately) is to STOP the wheel and the bike from falling into the corner.
At the very least, we hold the bars steady when we have judged the angle of lean to be sufficient, in more aggressive riding it is possible to PUll the bar on the OPPOSITE side of the bike to the corner or PUSH on the SAME side as the corner.
The most obvious example of this in terms of seeing it in action is to look at speedway bikes !
Full opposite lock !!
I wont go into the processional tendency of the rear wheel in this mode as it is not applicable to road riding.
But take a look at some speedway and you'll see what I mean or borrow a pushbike for 10 mins and wheel it along in a straight line then lean it both ways and see what the front wheel does !!
It was with reference to normal road riding Ian
Some road racers ave perfected the technique on the race tracks, one in particular (I forget his name) does it regularly and I think they have dubbed it the "slingshot" ??
No doubt someone else will have all the lowdown on this
The Yanks pitch their bikes "sideways" feet up at 100 + mph
and countersteer on the dirt ovals, similar to speedway
Absolutely MAD
If you can't counter steer and our paths do cross on a ride, please let me know in advance, as in all honest RK, I don't want you in front of, or behind me on the road.
Hmm... or maybe you could offer him some advice as an ex-instructor rather than knocking his confidence?
I've heard a lot about people being "told" to use counter steer recently and I think there's one thing people should realise.
Just as Kwak said, everyone counter steers, whether they know it or not. Because of a bikes self righting tendency caused by the rake and trail of the front end, the bike wants to go straight on all the time. Just look at bikes on a track when the rider comes off. If the wheels stay on the ground the bikes natural tendency is to immediately stand back upright and carry straight on.
The only way to overcome this is counter steer which causes two things to happen.
One. The bikes momentum is trying to take the bike forwards. If you turn the bars in one direction, say to the right, immediately as the bike tries to turn right its momentum pushes it forwards and the bike will try and "roll" to the left just as a car does which is turning right. However, a bike doesn't have four wheels for stability and so instead of rolling, it actually falls to the left.
Two. The gyroscopic forces of the wheels are pretty powerful. As you try to turn the bars, you are pushing against the gyroscopic force of the front wheel. Anyone who ever did physics at school will know how difficult it is to turn a gyroscope and so instead of turning the bars by an amount appropriate to the force being put into it by you, your energy is instead transferred back through you (remember Newton, every force has an opposite and equal etc) and into the main part of the bike behind the headstock. However, the rear of the bike can't turn the opposite way due to the frictional forces between the road and the rear tyre (you are effectively trying to pull the back end of the bike around, which you can't do) and so the bike does the only other thing it can and gets pulled over in the same direction.
All this is far, far easier to explain with diagrams.
Of course, once these two things happen, once the bike has begun to fall over in the opposite direction to which the bars are turned, centripedal forces take over. In much the same way as a hoop turns when rolled along the ground, the two bike wheels do the same, just not as severely because they are linked.
So the bike turns.
However, all that aside. Any newbies uncertain of the advantages of counter steering, as I mentioned at the start, are already using it, just not realising!
If you try to directly use it, it will feel very alien. A lot of this is because you expect it to feel alien and so as you push on the inside bar (or pull the outside or indeed as I often do, both) you may well be turning your body slightly or putting forces through the other bar as well without realising.
What I'd suggest instead of actually purposefully pushing to begin with, is dropping the inside shoulder instead. Dropping the inside shoulder is a technique often recommended, you only have to lower it slightly, a couple of inches will do, but it really helps with cornering. What people often don't realise is what they are doing when they do this, is they are putting more pressure on the inside bar, so they are counter steering with more force.
Also, look where you want to go and lean gently with your upper body in that direction. Again, what you are doing here is putting pressure on the inside bar.
Purposeful counter steer, without trying to purposefully counter steer!
What Geoff said!!
Back in the old RAC/ACU days I was taught to tip into a bend by looking, leaning and dropping the shoulder and then it was explained what I had actually been doing by using this technique, seemed a lot more natural and less complicated that way.
Hmm... or maybe you could offer him some advice as an ex-instructor rather than knocking his confidence?
I think Teecee that when someone is confident enough after 2,000 miles to dismiss counter steering as an option, that it's not a matter of shortage of confidence that's the issue.
I see he's taking training , that's good.
I also see Tango Man will ride with him. Perhaps they can exchange knowledge. TM...priceless! TM and I know what that's about folks.
Personally, if someone isn't a safe rider (in my opinion) I don't need to have them group riding with me. Same as I'd not want anyone drunk, drugged up, aggressive or knackered, or on a bike that's falling to bits.If you qualify on any of these counts, at least have the courtesy to let me know, then I have a choice to drop out of the ride, or make additional provision for your riding skills level. No point putting the slowest at the back for instance is there? Not unless you want to lose them or cause them to ride at a speed beyond their capabilities to keep up with faster riders. Likewise if I know someone is going to ride a bend like it's a 50 pence piece I'd not want a concertina effect behind them, just in case and I can adjust my speed accordingly to leave bigger gaps (I'd prefer him in front to behind as I trust my abilities to react, over those of a 1000cc rider with 2,000 miles) and if truth be told Teecee I guess you would apply that logic too.
Seems like sense to me.
Now with an instructor hat on, rather than knocking his confidence, I'd suggest, get training on counter steering and understand how important it is.
Could you explain to me just where you interpret this quoted post as "dismiss(ing) counter steering as an option"?
I've just watched a video
on counter steering and had a go but it feels totally alien and not
something I'd fancy doing at any rate of knots! Obviously something I
need to practice but I have covered over 2k in the past month, mostly
on twisties and haven't needed to use it yet!! Training is a good thing, i'm an ex plant instructor so all for it and i've already joined the IAM.
Watched a vid.
Had a go.
Feels alien.
Obviously something he needs to practice.
That reads to me like someone who wants to learn how to counter steer.
When he goes on to say he's done a couple of thousand miles without
having encountered a situation where he's needed to do something he's
only just heard of and that seems alien to his inexperienced riding
abilities, I don't read that as "confidence", I read that more as
"Looks like I've been lucky - fortunately I'm already signed up for
further training"
How are newbie riders supposed to learn if they're greeted with negative
comments from experienced riders such as "I don't want you in front of me or behind me on the road" (I may be paraphrasing here - can't be bothered to page back! ) when they admit to making errors or ignorance of certain
skills?
I can't even pay my bills, let alone afford to buy my first bike at this point in my life, but were I out there riding, I'd be disinclined to admit to errors or inabilities on here if that's the reaction I'm likely to get. Fortunately, I'm surrounded by supportive folk in RL who I know will help me in a positive manner when the time comes.
I understand that you may have been annoyed by me not wanting you riding with me until such a time as you can counter steer with confidence.
My main concern however is that I do not wish you to get injured or killed, or to injure me or kill me, or anyone else you happen to be riding with. This thread is about statistics. I'd rather count you as a fellow rider, than as an entry on a spread sheet and a few column inches in a local paper.
I commend you on taking further training...it will help.
I will also ask that anyone who takes part in a group ride, who knows of a particular riding trait they have that others may need to react to, should make them known up front, there's no room for machismo when other people are relying on you to ride safely.
Me...I freak out at high edges with blind bends and slow down and hug the inside line furthest from the edge.
me not wanting you riding with me until such a time as you can counter steer with confidence.
Had you worded it like that in the first place, it wouldn't have been seen as a negative.... Constructive criticism is great... Negativity is counter productive. Not counter steering.
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