The best form of training I found was to go to a Race School, you learn all sorts of stuff there you "think" you would never use, it also helps with confidence etc. ( it taught me alot and I even did a little racing because of it!)
I personally dont use my brakes all that often, mainly because my bike has flat side mikuni's and throttling off is usually enough for bends, if I am riding in a group then I do tell the people I am with not to travel up my backside, however, if you are silly enough to rely on the person in front of you to tell you when to brake, where in the road to be etc, you shouldnt be on the road.
This has nothing to do with counter steering, but everyone rides differently and if you are not sure of the person in front of you then you should be leaving a big enough gap to react to what they do.
So there you go Lamble.. if we ever go out on a ride... I don't brake!!! lol...
Of paramount importance in any riding that I do and that you do, is your own safety. Your own safety. As many elements of risk that you can eliminate from your riding the better. If that means dropping out of a group ride because you don't feel comfortable with the dynamics of the group, then that's what you should do.
I pulled out of a group ride two weekends ago, when after two sports bike riders decided to race each other through the group and a Pan husband and wife duo decided an emergency stop on the entrance to a car park, so she could queue jump for an ice cream was more important than the four of us stuck out in traffic, in a set of road works where we were blocking the road, was more important.
If RK isn't riding bends in a manner I'm comfortable with, my safety over rides his. I've options. Don't ride with him, position him somewhere away from me, or at least know what he will be riding like ahead of setting off and have that as a concern throughout the ride, making adjustments accordingly.
There isn't any fluffy bunnies in this, and maybe no second chances. The support comes in making people aware that their riding has consequences, to them and those around them and wrapping it up in ribbons isn't going to make a shred of difference in a bend.
Riding is fun, it's also dangerous. We all have risk levels we are prepared to work at or within on a personal level. But in a group, you have shared responsibilities and learning how to ride safely (and understanding and using counter steering is part of that) is one of them.
It's only negative if you approach it as being such, for me it was a very positive message...about riding safely and the need to learn and keep learning.
I can't directly relate FG cos I've never done a Race School.
However, I have done many track days and I've done track based riding courses (concentrating mainly on cornering and braking) and I have to say I agree.
Some of the best training and experience I've had is on track. Apart from the amazing amount of information you get offered on machine control from instructors far better than the likes of me, tracks are the perfect place to practise things like cornering.
If you do get it wrong or you do get confused enough to risk losing it, don't panic, just aim for the exit of the bend and relax. If you do go off the tarmac, the chances are you're just going for a short off-roading session on relatively smooth grass.
Ok, gravel traps can be a slightly different kettle of piranha, but still safer than a dry stone wall or an oncoming truck!
Unless of course it's an oncoming blancmonge truck made with light meringue pieces and chocolate sprinkles.
If I can use engine braking rather than using the brakes, then that's what I'll do too. Don't need to get those tyres working extra hard when there's no need. And track training is something very commendable too for lots of reasons and on any bike.
I suppose what really worries me, is that someone, anybody is allowed to buy a bike and ride it on the road, without having been told about counter steering. As I said, in the US it's part of the basics, why not here too?
Like I say Lamble - it's all in the interpretation... You interpreted RK's post as being overly confident, I interpreted it as admitting inexperience and wanting to learn and improve his skills.
You intended your original post in response to be positive, but it came across (at least to TC & myself) as negative. The re-worded follow up was way better IMO Can't speak for RK as the bloke's not been seen since - he may well have taken it positively and it's just my & TC's interpretation that was at fault.
Don't get me wrong - I'm all for constructive criticism and fluffy bunnies are pretty low down my list of requirements.
& for what it's worth, I'm 100% behind riding within your own abilities and not trying to keep up with the pack. I've said it many times on here and in person, ESPECIALLY with newbie women riders who somehow feel that they MUST keep up with the chaps they're out with. DON'T! Grow a backbone and stick to your guns. Ride within your own abilities. Do NOT feel under pressure to go faster than you're capable of. If they have to wait for you a few miles down the road, let them. If they put you under pressure and take the pi$$ because you can't keep up with them, go ride with someone else instead.
You are putting yourself at risk. They've been riding around for 20 years and had all sorts of bikes and all sorts of experiences. You've held your shiny new licence for a matter of weeks/months and you're on your first "big" bike.
It's an easy concept - not quantum physics. Exercise a little common sense and self-preservation.
P.S. Nope - I'm having a weekend off Ian Diamond Day and Lavender Festivals are on the agenda. And possibly visiting Pa in hozzie, only I might see if I can wangle a weekend off that too and pop over on Monday instead
I see where you are coming from Lamble, but it's the same with learning to drive a car, give them enough to get them thru the test and send them on their way. I personally would like to see all potential car drivers learn how to ride a bike/moped before they are let anywhere near a car!
The only way new riders will learn is by asking and us! and I would be quite happy to help anyone that asked I am sure most of us on here would.
and WB... couldnt of put it better myself - go at yr own pace and if they want to ride off fine.. if they don't want to wait for you thats fine aswell... find someone else to ride with.
WB, I didn't interpret RK as being overly confident, I interpreted him of being ignorant.
Okay that'll cause a few pulses to race, but ignorant in that he hadn't been told, or shown, or learned yet, how vital a part of cornering CS is. And I'd not want that ignorance to lead to anything bad. So despite only having 2,000 miles and despite only having watched a vid and given it a go, I still want that ignorance addressed and he is taking training which is good.
ok, well i will be honest, i have been riding bikes since i was 16 and i am 38 now, i have never heard the term counter steering when talking to friends, one of which is the most talented rider i know, and we have never discussed it, now i am not saying i dont do it without realising, after all i must be doing something right after 22 years and not getting trouble, but i can sympathise with other riders who have never come across the phrase
Ian, you probably have been doing it without realising it, someone just put a name on it thats all, and there are a few different ways of doing it, some more pronounced than others, and some better than others! and good on the guy for giving it a go and then going and getting further training!
That said, of course, you shouldn't take it to the opposite extreme... mentioning no names... but she's just a bloody wannabe anyway so who cares?
A little voice in the earpiece on a CBT saying "Erm Louise. You know the speed limit's 50, right?" Cue vigorous nodding... "Well, feel free to go faster, any time you feel like it"
Hey WB.. After I passed my test I used to do 45 everywhere! this was caused by the fact that it was all my little Z200 would do, even going down a very steep hill in wales with a force 9 gale behind me! Now of course I am very good and stick to the speed limits...
yep thats the one.. together with taking helmet off, shaking hair, undoing leathers, pulling low cut Tshirt down slightly and of course the "innocent" smile...
FG you are quite right whe you say that Ian, or anyone else, has been using counter-steering without realising it.It’s all to do with physics, and the principle of conservation of angular momentum at the front wheel. There’s no need to go into the kind of detail that will make many people’s eyes glaze over, but the end result is that to keep control of a bike at anything more than walking pace you’ve got to use counter steering. Anyone who rides a bike will have absorbed this whether of not they realise it.When advanced instructors talk about riders “using” counter steering, they really mean more of a conscious awareness of what is going on, and again you don’t have to be a physicist ior engineer. A gentle nudge of the bars in one direction will tip the bike momentarily the opposite way, and if you can analyse this consciously you can then work with it to your advantage. It’s just a question of being more aware of what you’ve always been doing.One product of this is that if you hit a car or wall a glancing blow as you pass it, it will pull the bars towards the vehicle and the bike will tip in the opposite direction and then veer away. There’s a good but frightening example in the YouTube clip a few days ago showing the build up to a fatal accident that was discussed on this forum. In the same weay, if a vehicle passing you catches you a glacing blow, then the bike will tip towards it...with very nastly consequences indeed if it’s a big artic and there are all sorts of wheels to fall under.There’s nothing wrong with engine braking in itself, but remember that any braking will tip a vehicle fowards to some degree, transferring weight to the front wheel. Overdo it and the rear wheel will break grip, and ABS won’t come to your rescue.
TM get a grip on youirself!!
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